Saturday, April 22, 2006

 

Bosnian Pyramid Story


Stone Balls in BiH


Science and Politics


Article from FENA about Osmanagic

Second FENA article

Interview with Osmanagic


Pictures from previous site

Lots of Bosnian language info on pyramid dig lots of pix
Visoko Online

Another blog article on the Bosnian pyramid
Bonus Points, read the archeologist jokes! :)

Another pyramid article



Australian goes to the Bosnian Pyramid dig





Some excellent pyramid pictures


Reuters Film of Pyramid


Some Half-wayLegitimate Criticism of Visoko Dig*


Warning Slow as Molassas PDF File...Semir Osmanagic is on the Board of Directors of this organization.
Alliance on the Web Annual Report

Archeoblog

* Alright I'm going to editorialize a bit here, I wanted it seperate from the links.

I was not able to get a lot of background information on Dr. Semir Osmanagic himself, other than he's Bosnian, born in Zenica, 45 years old, and lives most of the time in Houston Texas.
He does have some training as an archeologist, mostly he's worked in Latin America. Frankly that is excellent training for knowing a pyramid hill when one sees it.
I did get a brief glimpse of the hill on a bus ride between Zagreb and Sarajevo back in 2001. I did think it looked like a pyramid. It wasn't right for an inactive volcano.
Bear in mind I spent a couple years in Mexico as a kid, and have visited two unexcavated pyramids, one known and one not yet known. So I think I have the ability to spot the signs of a pyramid.
I do have a little archeological training. Dr. Osmanagic has 15 years of training and field experience.
So when I said the criticism of Dr. Imamovic was halfway legit, that's it, it's halfway legit, but not entirely legit. Dr. Osmanagic isn't a rank amateur, he's had training.
I should mention one thing I can't stand about archeologists is the level of infighting in the field. I've witnessed it in the past. I don't like it. I don't consider it useful or the behavior of scientists.
I did my best to keep really 'woo woo' sites out and of course weeded out anything with a strong political agenda of any kind.
I should also mention there IS in fact one other pyramid in Europe, it's in the Canary Islands.

The Black Pyramids in Tenerif


More on the Black Pyramids in Tenerif


Other pictures of the pyramids in Tenerif

Tenerif's Black Pyramids are very small compared to Mexican or Egyptian pyramids.

They are of the 'step pyramid' style. One sees those in both Egypt and Mexico.

Anyway I want to find out more about Osmanagic, and I'll share it when I do. Sometimes the first search for information isn't what one wants, and one needs to do it again.

Raja Radio Bosna Mp3"

This has LIVE MUSIC from Boise Idaho tonight! Skelly tune it in if you aren't there!


Comments:
There are many mountains like that in Bosnia. In fact I thought about the mountians around Bratunac after seeing this picture.

I've never read an article on this...I guess I'm going to have to now.

Thanks,

John
 
What a magnificent round-up of links on the subject. It's difficult to know how sceptical it's right to be. The aerial photo suggests that it's the townward side that gives the main appearance of being the side of a pyramid as the left-hand side seems like a sequence of folds in the hillside. But one way or another the site is being uncovered in the full glare of publicity so we should know by the end of the summer whether the hypothesis holds water or not.

Thanks for the Tenerife links as well - I hadn't heard of those. Now I'm waiting for someone to discover the equivalent of the Nasca lines in East Anglia.
 
@ Owen: But my dear they have! Heavens! Have you not heard of 'ley lines' and then theres that big horse done in calk and the giant with his rather gigantic kita and a club on another hillside! So England indeed has the equivalent of the Nazca lines! :)
@John, not having been to Bratunac, I couldn't judge, this wasn't the first I've posted on the suspected pyramid, only the biggest!
I was trying to find out about the archeologist in this, and I mean to keep digging until I know more.
A poster on 'Balkan Scissors' took a line that I found provoking. the 'Well a bunch of nationalists are destroying Bosnian heritage' bit I've heard that kind of thing before! I wanted to find something that might amount to proof one way or another. No such luck.
Note, I posted the only thing that looked remotely like fact based opposition and criticism. I think some people are very threatened by the notion that any pre-Christian and or pre -Slavic people could have done something like this. Of course everyone is going to be upset if it turns out to be some sort of secret Ottoman era arms dump! :)
 
I thought you picked a very good selection of articles, and I was glad you picked up on the issue of the disagreements that arise between professionals when one archaeologist's project doesn't fit with the other archaeologist's professional ethos (or ambitions). Quite a lot of smoke needs to clear before we can see what's really up.

Howe could I have forgotten the famous Cerne Abbas gentleman (http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/majorsites/cerne_abbass.html)!

Another impressive hill figure is the White Horse of Uffington: http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/majorsites/uffington.html.

And now I'm off to do a bit of crop circle work in the park!
 
Katja,
I hate to disappoint you, but Mr. Semir "Sam" Osmanagic(h) is not a doctor of anything and has no formal training in archaeology. He arrived in Texas in the early 1990s as a refugee. In a 1999 interview with the Houston Business Journal, he said he had a "master's degree in international economics" and had run his own trading firm in Bosnia. At the time of the interview, he was general manager and part owner of an oil industry service firm based in Houston. Over the last decade and a half, he also traveled a bit and developed an obsession with cryproarchaeology (hint: not a real science). He has written at length about his theories of "alternative history," in which pyramids play a major role (e.g. he believes that the pyramids in the Central American jungle were really built by Mayan astronauts from outer space); for a sample of this kind of stuff, see http://www.alternativnahistorija.com/WM.htm

On a visit back home to Bosnia last year, Sam took one look at the shape of the hills near Visoko and the rest, as they say, is history. In the process he has raised high expectations among residents of a fading small town ("This could be our oil-well," one hopeful local told a reporter), has gained the support of powerful nationalist politicians (who, in true Balkan fashion, are always looking for the future in the past), and has real archaeologists worried about the genuine medieval antiquities in the area that may be obliterated in the desperate and uncontrolled quest for pyramids and profits.

For what real (i.e. non-crypto) archaeologists, in Bosnia and elsewhere, think about Mr. Osmanagich's alleged discoveries at Visoko, see

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,59-2150036,00.html
by Prof. Anthony Harding, President of the European Association of Archaeologists

http://www.theartnewspaper.com/article01.asp?id=237
"Amateur to dig on site of medieval capital in search of Bosnia's own Valley of the Kings;
Mayor of Sarajevo and other officials greenlight bizarre and potentially destructive project"
-- by Lucian Harris, The Art Newspaper (London)
 
Andras,Thanks for your visit to my blog and really my sincere thanks for putting those links, you've done a very good job with the argument against excavation.
That is important and appreciated.
I tried to use the one link going from SeeSaw's blog, if only because I do want to hear the other side of the discussion and you did include some really excellent information!

I would really like more on Mr. Osmanagic's personal background, and it looks like other than some rather less than professional writings neither of us has much to go on as far as he goes.
Imamovic at least does have the requisite training.
One thing really bothers me about Balkans history generally, and that is that if anyone sees something new, some new direction, then it gets rejected out of hand.
I mean I remember rolling by on the bus and seeing that hill and thinking it was very pyramid shaped, I didn't talk to anyone about this observation.I didn't have the chance to ask anyone and the people I know there probably know far less about archeology than I do. I had at least three years of classes not leading to s degree of any sort however.
Sometimes even an amateur who isn't all there can observe things miss.
THat happens even in normal archeology pretty regularly.
Prof. Harding mentions that this suspected pyramid was known of before. Why doesn't he say how far back this information was known?
I think sometimes things didn't get explored in the former Yugoslavia for as political reasons as they do get explored now
Ordinary people KNOW that.
The part of Dr. Imamovic's objections which really hold the most water are that Visoko was the home for a long time of the kings of Bosnia. so there would of course be wonderful Medieval things there. Perhaps that hill is part of centuries of fortifications, who really knows since it was never explored before.
The awful thing about exploration of the Medieval history of Bosnia is the claims and counter claims by both Serbs and Croats regarding the last royal family of Bosnia.
Now you realize even the present flag of Bosnia, that ugly Central American Banana Republic looking thing replaced the arms of the Kotramanic family a family that over time, really represented Bosnia's total ethnic makeup as far as indigeonous people went, as there were members of each religious group, Catholic, Bosnian Christian, Orthodox, and later Muslim. Certain elements resented the old flag so much that the U.N. High Commissioner,Wolfgang Petritsch had to order the design of a whole new flag and the composition ofa whole new national anthem, which by the way had no words.
The elements which objected to the old flag were the most vociverous in claiming that the old royal house was purely of their ethnicities and religions too.

OK I'm willing to buy that Mr. Osmanagic is not sufficiently well trained or advised and that he might be really 'woo woo'.
The government in BiH doesn't have a lot of money for these projects, that is one of the reasons they have not happened, and you are correct in saying that priceless treasures are not correctly conserved or cared for all over BiH. This was the sad case long before the war and is not totally the fault of the present government or even the previous one for that matter!
Perhaps if Dr. Imamovic would have sat down with Mr. Osmanagic and they'd discussed their differing views it might have been better.
Another thing, I really think it's not helpful of Prof. Harding reffering to Mr. Osmanagic as a foreigner and an outsider. He was born in Bosnia Hercegovina. He's hardly an outsider, he lived most of his life there until the war. So where does this stuff about 'outsiders' come from?
I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, it's a question that should be asked.
He probably could have been approached with 'help us dig this the right way and you will get a lot of the glory!'
That isn't unheard of in archeological circles.
THe questions about what is being done about site conservation are very fair questions and it's right to ask them.
Those questions are logical misgivings.
I just wonder though how long a tourist venue in Visoko, dedicated to the Medieval Kingdom of Bosnia would remain uncontroversial, there'd be stuff about 'nationalists wrecking Bosnia Hercegovina's heritage in that instance as well! Its time all that silly nonsense stopped.
It's an accusation often made for political motives and seldom really backed up.
Maybe in this instance it's correct. The fact the accusation is made so often is why it doesn't work very well and is itself sort of suspicious.
Frankly the only reason I buy it at all is the parties to the dispute are the same religous and ethnic background.
I have a fiendish lot of homework and don't feel especially well so I'm holding off on further research until I feel well enough to do the job right.
I excluded all stuff that was 'cryptoarcheology' because Sometimes legititmate archeologists appear on such shows, eg Zahi Hawas on the Art Bell show repeatedly.
A lot of people don't give the human race due credit for assorted advances before our own era.
It's reasonable to take a conservative line on this but it's not always correct.
Most of the people who lived in Mexico who built the great pyramid were in a situation of the rulers living a comfortable life, in better health for the most part than their equals in the same era in Spain or the rest of Europe.
Meanwhile the ordinary people led lives of great toil, hardship and want. Often they did not really live in anything better than a house made of grass, and had no capacity to store food ahead for themselves. The local rulers did that for them. Of course in hurricane country houses of grass are the most logical so it was not an unmitigated evil, but it left very little record of normal people in the archological reccord!
Stored food that the rulers took as taxes was distrubuted in times of need, as pay for work on various projects, like pyramids, ball courts, roads etc.
So there would be few remains of comfortable houses for ordinary people, or of nice clothes. Every 50 years they destroyed just about everything flamable too. This was part of their religion.
This is known, documented fact.
So great civilizations may only leave a few large monumenta and little else or they could be like Egypt where there's hardly any way not to dig up some antiquity such as a cat mummy or even a mouse mummy for the cat mummy and then also all those pyramids and the carefully preserved mummies of humans in elabosrate tombs.
The date of humans actually living in houses vs caves has been steadily pushed earlier, as have a lot of other things about human history over time.
So scepticism is fair, but one must not be totally ruled by it.
Again, thanks for visiting. Are you going to start your own blog soon?
 
I've read an interesting article on http://www.bosnian-pyramid.net
about the corners of the pyramid. It would be an easy way to proof
quickly the existence, but they dig near the corners but not the
corners. Then they've dug something on the top of it, but not the
top!? I've seen some pictures on that really let me think again about
this whole thing. Every day I believe less in this mystery.
 
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