Saturday, October 22, 2005
This is long, and about touchy subjects.
There has been some discussion elsewhere about whether or not Muslims ought to have mosques in areas where they constitute less than 100% of any areas population. I think that is a crock to even say such a thing.
OK Religion and Ethnicity disclosure time just so you can realize where I'm comeing from.
My family mostly are Catholic,(Irish, Scots,Swedish (prior to Luther,after Luther the Swedes had a nasty time of killing off and forciably converting Catholics.), French,English,Hungarian,Polish,Bosnian branch of the family, As well I'm part Native American.(this is my mother's side, pretty much the tie with all the disparate European elements is the House of Anjou, we were very mixed before any Europeans ever came to the Americas.) there is a Jewish branch of my family, (This is on my father's side and I didn't know about it until 2 years ago, I also don't know a lot about it.) , and an Orthodox Christian branch,(Russians, and in the 11th century, and before, some Serbian Orthdox ancestors. On my mother's side my line traces right back to Emperor Constantine) and a Muslim branch of my family. (Some of my Bosnian ancestors converted to keep their lands and lower their taxes The father of my kids was at least nominally a Muslim, from India, his family had ties all over not just the Indian sub-Continent, but Central Asia as well).
Last time Croatia had a census I was there visiting and because I'm Catholic I was counted in the census as being an ethnic Croat. So my complex family tree comes down to this, I never felt accepted among Celtic people despite speaking and reading Irish very well, but before I spoke Bosnian decently I felt accepted.
I should say that as I've gotten older I find religion not terribly valuable or comforting. There have been times that religion has been the exact opposite of a comfort. I believe in God, I observe certain basic things,I suppose it has a social value, but as far as being wonderful, no it isn't.
It seems to mostly be an excuse to do or not do things for too many people, the things they do or don't do are all the wrong things.
I haven't often seen religion improve the behavior of bad people, and I have seen it worsen the behavior of good people sometimes. I am speaking of EVERYONE'S religion, not any one denomination, sect or specific religion.
I really don't care so much about religion. I observe the basic rules for Catholic people. Which includes modest dress, the most un-observed of the rules for Catholics. OK we have my religion/ethnicity thing covered.
My friends have been of many religions. So have people who have let us say.... not been my friends.
I don't hold a brief for, or have an ax to grind for any religion.
The idea that an area has to be 100% Muslim before there can be a mosque, is SILLY. Anyone who is saying that should think, what if also no area should have a church unless that area is 100% Christian. Since Christianity is a bit divided, (we are talking about a religion that doesn't even have the same CALENDAR! Muslims have the same calendar if they are Shia or Sunni, Jews have the same calendar if they are Orthodox, Reform or whatever, Hindus have the same calendar, but not Christians! ) So to be totally with this concept, then no church could exist unless 100% of all inhabitants of an area were that DENOMINATION. Think about this, it would not be tolerated by the members of whatever religioun or religious denomination was in the minority.
As to the thing with azan being called with a loudspeaker, I also don't like that. It isn't necessary, and it isn't really traditional. Traditional is a guy with good strong lungs and poor eyesight goes up the minaret and does the call five times a day at the appointed times, NOT that there is a loudspeaker.
There is sucha thing as churches, especially in the U.S. haveing not bells, which I LOVE to hear, man I LOVE the sound of real church bells, it's beautiful!, there are tape players set on timers which play hymns on carrillion thingies. They sometimes have glitches and go off at the wrong time, or scramble the tunes of the hymns and things that are played on carrillions and recorded for this use.
As far as shoveing someone's religion down another's throat, there is on the Hill of Hum, near to Mostar, this gigantorific concrete cross, it isn't just visible on the West side of Mostar, but for MILES. It was put up like a big digitus impudens to the Muslims who once were the majority community in Mostar, and who gave the city much of it's beauty, with the bridge and other lovely buildings.
A lot of Christians in recent years have worn a bracelet that has WWJD on it, What Would Jesus Do? Would Jesus want a HUGE big HERKING big HUGE Cross on a hill just to spite other people?
I have always maintained that in at least the last 150 years the Christian resentment toward Muslims was more about the Christian failure to live as Christians and the Christian failure from the time of the Great Schisim to have unity. By live as Christians should live, I mean modestly, without war. A Christian isn't a braggart, a Christian should not be consumed with lusts, or on fire for vengence. There is in the popular culture of the modern Western world much which would make our Savior Jesus get out his whip like he did when he found the money changers in the Temple.
Some of the hostility of some Christians to both Muslims and Jews is because Muslims and Jews both refuse to totally cave in to vile elements of the popular culture. They make a sincere effort to know and keep the laws and customs of their faiths. I wish more Western Christians would do that! We might find that the West and the Muslim world would have less problems.
I am not talking about takeing on an attitude like that rotter Rvd Phelps or that other intolerant jerk, Rvd Ian Paisley. That is the LAST thing I mean by liveing as Christians. I am talking about liveing by the basic precepts Jesus gave us, about how to live in the world, without becomeing corrupted.
I find myself increasingly disgusted that little children and teenagers in our country are dressed like little hookers and thugs. Worse than that, they turn into little hookers and thugs. I have to ignore really disgusting songs about sex, 'ma hump ma lovly lady hump' and all that govno, I'd rather listen to the azan the rest of my life than have to walk by the baseball field or the park or the Student Union and hear that!
They are not educated correctly at home or in church, or school about sex or family life, about the fact that this is a very great responsibility, not a game.
I find myself disgusted with the love of violence in our society, and the drugs. We have our nerve if we say that any people cannot pray in their own way.
Think for a moment what has been done, I know certain people want to deny that it has been done too! The Muslims of Bosnia were slaughtered, plundered, burned out of their homes and raped. Their children were killed. This happened under the noses of the West, the oh so civilized West. And people who are oh so civilized did these things, despite being heirs to very great and noble cultures.
That spirit is not Christianity and that will destroy the West faster than a hundred bin-Ladins or a hundred Mehmet IIs.
My first time to visit Sarajevo was the first time I heard the azan given from a mosque. I had of course heard it on those occasions when my former husband had very religious guests, or if I visited with people who were his friends. It's very different when you hear it as it's meant to be done, loud like that. I remember rather likeing it.
There was an occasion my significant other got really fed up hearing it. He'd been sick. He made fun of it. Something rang wrong about makeing fun of someone else's beliefs. I don't care for that sort of thing. The first couple times I let it go. The second time got on my nerves. I said 'the radio is over there, go ahead and turn on some loud music, it's over in a couple minutes!' Later when I was a little calmer I asked him what his beef with Muslims was. It wasn't Oric, it wasn't the nasty bunch of foreign mudzahadin down in Hercegovina back during the war, it wasn't Delic or Halilovic he mentioned, it was this sentance that came out of his mouth 'nema da jest ali pravi dzamije!'. 'They don't have anything to eat but they build mosques!'
My reply was 'ok a bunch of Croats go back where either the cetniks or the mudzahadin burned everything, and they rebuild?' 'Of course they build their church first!' 'But they just got back to their burned village, their children are hungry and 'nema da jest!' Everyone builds their place that they pray in first before they worry about food, I don't care if they are Serbs, Croats or Muslims, Hindus or Jews, everyone does that, that isn't a sign that the Muslims are bad people, or good people, it's a sign that they are people like any other people. They put what they believe in first.'
He kind of nodded, he was thinking about what I was saying.
Let me say something here, my significant other is not a saint, he's not perfect, but he thinks things over, and I wish there were more people like him in BiH, in SiCG, and the rest of this sorry world, because there would be mroe peace, he's a simple man, he came from a peasant family, he's known a life of hard work, and survived war. he has more sanity than a lot of people I know who have had it way better in life.
I respect him very greatly.
I can't hate them because of a few bad ones. That would be like if we decided to hate your Serbian neighbors because of Milosevic or Arkan!
And you like the Pope right? ' (Papa Ivo Pavo II) 'Yes he is a good Pope, and a good man!' 'Well what did he say we Catholics should think about Muslims? Didn't he come to this city when it was still very dangerous? Didnt' he urge Croat Catholic people not to be enemies with Muslims?' He nodded. The truth is that many of his friends happen to be Muslim, many of his friends happen to be Serbian people. When I was in BiH his friends were my friends regardless of religion or ethnicity.
Let people put their churches and mosques where they want, let them not ring their bells or call their azans so loud it is a nuisance.
Oh about that azan that was so loud my first and second visits? It was less loud the last time I was there. It was still called, just not with a loudspeaker anymore.
OK Religion and Ethnicity disclosure time just so you can realize where I'm comeing from.
My family mostly are Catholic,(Irish, Scots,Swedish (prior to Luther,after Luther the Swedes had a nasty time of killing off and forciably converting Catholics.), French,English,Hungarian,Polish,Bosnian branch of the family, As well I'm part Native American.(this is my mother's side, pretty much the tie with all the disparate European elements is the House of Anjou, we were very mixed before any Europeans ever came to the Americas.) there is a Jewish branch of my family, (This is on my father's side and I didn't know about it until 2 years ago, I also don't know a lot about it.) , and an Orthodox Christian branch,(Russians, and in the 11th century, and before, some Serbian Orthdox ancestors. On my mother's side my line traces right back to Emperor Constantine) and a Muslim branch of my family. (Some of my Bosnian ancestors converted to keep their lands and lower their taxes The father of my kids was at least nominally a Muslim, from India, his family had ties all over not just the Indian sub-Continent, but Central Asia as well).
Last time Croatia had a census I was there visiting and because I'm Catholic I was counted in the census as being an ethnic Croat. So my complex family tree comes down to this, I never felt accepted among Celtic people despite speaking and reading Irish very well, but before I spoke Bosnian decently I felt accepted.
I should say that as I've gotten older I find religion not terribly valuable or comforting. There have been times that religion has been the exact opposite of a comfort. I believe in God, I observe certain basic things,I suppose it has a social value, but as far as being wonderful, no it isn't.
It seems to mostly be an excuse to do or not do things for too many people, the things they do or don't do are all the wrong things.
I haven't often seen religion improve the behavior of bad people, and I have seen it worsen the behavior of good people sometimes. I am speaking of EVERYONE'S religion, not any one denomination, sect or specific religion.
I really don't care so much about religion. I observe the basic rules for Catholic people. Which includes modest dress, the most un-observed of the rules for Catholics. OK we have my religion/ethnicity thing covered.
My friends have been of many religions. So have people who have let us say.... not been my friends.
I don't hold a brief for, or have an ax to grind for any religion.
The idea that an area has to be 100% Muslim before there can be a mosque, is SILLY. Anyone who is saying that should think, what if also no area should have a church unless that area is 100% Christian. Since Christianity is a bit divided, (we are talking about a religion that doesn't even have the same CALENDAR! Muslims have the same calendar if they are Shia or Sunni, Jews have the same calendar if they are Orthodox, Reform or whatever, Hindus have the same calendar, but not Christians! ) So to be totally with this concept, then no church could exist unless 100% of all inhabitants of an area were that DENOMINATION. Think about this, it would not be tolerated by the members of whatever religioun or religious denomination was in the minority.
As to the thing with azan being called with a loudspeaker, I also don't like that. It isn't necessary, and it isn't really traditional. Traditional is a guy with good strong lungs and poor eyesight goes up the minaret and does the call five times a day at the appointed times, NOT that there is a loudspeaker.
There is sucha thing as churches, especially in the U.S. haveing not bells, which I LOVE to hear, man I LOVE the sound of real church bells, it's beautiful!, there are tape players set on timers which play hymns on carrillion thingies. They sometimes have glitches and go off at the wrong time, or scramble the tunes of the hymns and things that are played on carrillions and recorded for this use.
As far as shoveing someone's religion down another's throat, there is on the Hill of Hum, near to Mostar, this gigantorific concrete cross, it isn't just visible on the West side of Mostar, but for MILES. It was put up like a big digitus impudens to the Muslims who once were the majority community in Mostar, and who gave the city much of it's beauty, with the bridge and other lovely buildings.
A lot of Christians in recent years have worn a bracelet that has WWJD on it, What Would Jesus Do? Would Jesus want a HUGE big HERKING big HUGE Cross on a hill just to spite other people?
I have always maintained that in at least the last 150 years the Christian resentment toward Muslims was more about the Christian failure to live as Christians and the Christian failure from the time of the Great Schisim to have unity. By live as Christians should live, I mean modestly, without war. A Christian isn't a braggart, a Christian should not be consumed with lusts, or on fire for vengence. There is in the popular culture of the modern Western world much which would make our Savior Jesus get out his whip like he did when he found the money changers in the Temple.
Some of the hostility of some Christians to both Muslims and Jews is because Muslims and Jews both refuse to totally cave in to vile elements of the popular culture. They make a sincere effort to know and keep the laws and customs of their faiths. I wish more Western Christians would do that! We might find that the West and the Muslim world would have less problems.
I am not talking about takeing on an attitude like that rotter Rvd Phelps or that other intolerant jerk, Rvd Ian Paisley. That is the LAST thing I mean by liveing as Christians. I am talking about liveing by the basic precepts Jesus gave us, about how to live in the world, without becomeing corrupted.
I find myself increasingly disgusted that little children and teenagers in our country are dressed like little hookers and thugs. Worse than that, they turn into little hookers and thugs. I have to ignore really disgusting songs about sex, 'ma hump ma lovly lady hump' and all that govno, I'd rather listen to the azan the rest of my life than have to walk by the baseball field or the park or the Student Union and hear that!
They are not educated correctly at home or in church, or school about sex or family life, about the fact that this is a very great responsibility, not a game.
I find myself disgusted with the love of violence in our society, and the drugs. We have our nerve if we say that any people cannot pray in their own way.
Think for a moment what has been done, I know certain people want to deny that it has been done too! The Muslims of Bosnia were slaughtered, plundered, burned out of their homes and raped. Their children were killed. This happened under the noses of the West, the oh so civilized West. And people who are oh so civilized did these things, despite being heirs to very great and noble cultures.
That spirit is not Christianity and that will destroy the West faster than a hundred bin-Ladins or a hundred Mehmet IIs.
My first time to visit Sarajevo was the first time I heard the azan given from a mosque. I had of course heard it on those occasions when my former husband had very religious guests, or if I visited with people who were his friends. It's very different when you hear it as it's meant to be done, loud like that. I remember rather likeing it.
There was an occasion my significant other got really fed up hearing it. He'd been sick. He made fun of it. Something rang wrong about makeing fun of someone else's beliefs. I don't care for that sort of thing. The first couple times I let it go. The second time got on my nerves. I said 'the radio is over there, go ahead and turn on some loud music, it's over in a couple minutes!' Later when I was a little calmer I asked him what his beef with Muslims was. It wasn't Oric, it wasn't the nasty bunch of foreign mudzahadin down in Hercegovina back during the war, it wasn't Delic or Halilovic he mentioned, it was this sentance that came out of his mouth 'nema da jest ali pravi dzamije!'. 'They don't have anything to eat but they build mosques!'
My reply was 'ok a bunch of Croats go back where either the cetniks or the mudzahadin burned everything, and they rebuild?' 'Of course they build their church first!' 'But they just got back to their burned village, their children are hungry and 'nema da jest!' Everyone builds their place that they pray in first before they worry about food, I don't care if they are Serbs, Croats or Muslims, Hindus or Jews, everyone does that, that isn't a sign that the Muslims are bad people, or good people, it's a sign that they are people like any other people. They put what they believe in first.'
He kind of nodded, he was thinking about what I was saying.
Let me say something here, my significant other is not a saint, he's not perfect, but he thinks things over, and I wish there were more people like him in BiH, in SiCG, and the rest of this sorry world, because there would be mroe peace, he's a simple man, he came from a peasant family, he's known a life of hard work, and survived war. he has more sanity than a lot of people I know who have had it way better in life.
I respect him very greatly.
I can't hate them because of a few bad ones. That would be like if we decided to hate your Serbian neighbors because of Milosevic or Arkan!
And you like the Pope right? ' (Papa Ivo Pavo II) 'Yes he is a good Pope, and a good man!' 'Well what did he say we Catholics should think about Muslims? Didn't he come to this city when it was still very dangerous? Didnt' he urge Croat Catholic people not to be enemies with Muslims?' He nodded. The truth is that many of his friends happen to be Muslim, many of his friends happen to be Serbian people. When I was in BiH his friends were my friends regardless of religion or ethnicity.
Let people put their churches and mosques where they want, let them not ring their bells or call their azans so loud it is a nuisance.
Oh about that azan that was so loud my first and second visits? It was less loud the last time I was there. It was still called, just not with a loudspeaker anymore.
# posted by Katja R. @ 10:31 PM 
Comments:
<< Home
My point was the blasting prayers.
With all due respect me and you disagree on this one. I for one, after working a hard day's shift don't want to come home and listen to someone elses religion.
Unless I was getting paid to work in a village with a Mosque I would not live there. If I were a guest in a village for a short while with a Mosque I would have no problem with it.
And, I would fight tooth and nail against a Mosque being up in my neighborhood back in America if this Mosque chose to blare their music in public.
I have no problem with a Mosque as long as they don't force me to listen to their intrusive, offending music in my own house and property.
To me the music from the Mosque is no different than a gang bangers bass "thumping" for blocks around.
My point was that a Mosque should not allowed to be built in a neighborhood, if it's going to play their music, without the approval of the entire neighborhood.
I fail to see how this is "SILLY!"
Respectfully,
John
With all due respect me and you disagree on this one. I for one, after working a hard day's shift don't want to come home and listen to someone elses religion.
Unless I was getting paid to work in a village with a Mosque I would not live there. If I were a guest in a village for a short while with a Mosque I would have no problem with it.
And, I would fight tooth and nail against a Mosque being up in my neighborhood back in America if this Mosque chose to blare their music in public.
I have no problem with a Mosque as long as they don't force me to listen to their intrusive, offending music in my own house and property.
To me the music from the Mosque is no different than a gang bangers bass "thumping" for blocks around.
My point was that a Mosque should not allowed to be built in a neighborhood, if it's going to play their music, without the approval of the entire neighborhood.
I fail to see how this is "SILLY!"
Respectfully,
John
I'm impressed that you know that much about your ancestry.
I only can say that we go back to a bunch of Russians.
My Uja and Mama keep information like it's a fuckin' secret microfilm that they'll be sent to workcamp for if they reveal anything.
Even the simplest stories have to be pulled from them like teeth.
It took me years to get this story from them.
And it's hardly a drop to what you describe.
I only can say that we go back to a bunch of Russians.
My Uja and Mama keep information like it's a fuckin' secret microfilm that they'll be sent to workcamp for if they reveal anything.
Even the simplest stories have to be pulled from them like teeth.
It took me years to get this story from them.
And it's hardly a drop to what you describe.
@ Radmilla, in some cases it WAS a sentance to a work camp! Even in the comparatively less oppressive atmosphere of Yugoslavia it could have gotten one sent to a work camp, or a mental institution. This article may interest you, an actress originally from BiH wrote something about that, and I think it explains much.
http://www.archipelago.org/vol3-4/hecuba.htm I did know some of the information because my mother was a pretty decent amateur historian. Some of it I learned later. After I'd been to Bosnia i Hercegovina and Croatia. There are gaps, particularly as far as the Austrian side. That is frustrateing because in fact the Austrians kept good records. My aunt is researching that part of the family, she can speak and read German, so I wish her well. I was able to tell her what I knew about the Balkans end and I found out from her about my Hindu cousins.
The main reason to be glad if you do find royalty in your family tree is that the records are far mor likely to be intact and available. Royal peopel were not good for the most part. For the most part many of them were bad people, over dressed thugs who lived at the expense of their peoples, and who committed war crimes every bit as rotten as those of Tudjman, Milosevic, Delic, Halilovic Karadzic or Bobetko or any of the others.
They often went to war to take land from their own relatives. They imprisoned them and had them murdered on a regular basis. Kings asked for and recieved in marriage princesses far too young to be married. So royalty isn't anything good or special, but records exist for who was married to who, who had children with who, and usually in a number of languages.
When I first read your blog, I read about you Deda and I cried. War is so terrible. On the one hand, I definately believe that Milosevic had to go, on the other hand, I have never liked aerial bombardment as a way to conduct war, it is cowardly and despicable to me. I can respect men who fight face to face and must see their enemy, and risk death from him. I think even the most hard core pacefist can respect that form of physical courage, even if they aren't in favor of it. aerial bombardment is wrong.
In that post you spoke of the people being in the streets, even with bombs falling. This was so in Sarajevo dureing the shelling too. People did not entirely put their lives on hold.
When I was in like third or fourth grade the Cuban Missile Crisis occured and my family lived in East LA. The school had drop drills and filled our little child minds with fear of nuclear attack. I felt like 'if that's going to happen WHY is there school?' they made us run in a zig zag way home, as if that would save us if there were a nuclear bomb dropped on Los Angeles! jebiga!
Anyway my mom said 'You are from kings and queens, you are from people who were not cowards, people who fought for freedom and people who faced great odds. You are to walk in a dignified manner, if you want to run, that's good exercise go ahead but run in a normal way that zigzagging isn't going to do you a damn bit of good if they drop an atom bomb on L.A.!' So we walked as usual, alone out of all our schoolmates during those wierd weeks.
I think adults who try to scare children in the way they tried to scare children then, have a special place in Hell. I blame a lot of the bad things that happened to the culture of the United States on that nonsense.
As if a bunch of barbudos from Cuba or a bunch of Russians were even going to make it there!
Maybe with present day technology but that was then this is now.
Post a Comment
http://www.archipelago.org/vol3-4/hecuba.htm I did know some of the information because my mother was a pretty decent amateur historian. Some of it I learned later. After I'd been to Bosnia i Hercegovina and Croatia. There are gaps, particularly as far as the Austrian side. That is frustrateing because in fact the Austrians kept good records. My aunt is researching that part of the family, she can speak and read German, so I wish her well. I was able to tell her what I knew about the Balkans end and I found out from her about my Hindu cousins.
The main reason to be glad if you do find royalty in your family tree is that the records are far mor likely to be intact and available. Royal peopel were not good for the most part. For the most part many of them were bad people, over dressed thugs who lived at the expense of their peoples, and who committed war crimes every bit as rotten as those of Tudjman, Milosevic, Delic, Halilovic Karadzic or Bobetko or any of the others.
They often went to war to take land from their own relatives. They imprisoned them and had them murdered on a regular basis. Kings asked for and recieved in marriage princesses far too young to be married. So royalty isn't anything good or special, but records exist for who was married to who, who had children with who, and usually in a number of languages.
When I first read your blog, I read about you Deda and I cried. War is so terrible. On the one hand, I definately believe that Milosevic had to go, on the other hand, I have never liked aerial bombardment as a way to conduct war, it is cowardly and despicable to me. I can respect men who fight face to face and must see their enemy, and risk death from him. I think even the most hard core pacefist can respect that form of physical courage, even if they aren't in favor of it. aerial bombardment is wrong.
In that post you spoke of the people being in the streets, even with bombs falling. This was so in Sarajevo dureing the shelling too. People did not entirely put their lives on hold.
When I was in like third or fourth grade the Cuban Missile Crisis occured and my family lived in East LA. The school had drop drills and filled our little child minds with fear of nuclear attack. I felt like 'if that's going to happen WHY is there school?' they made us run in a zig zag way home, as if that would save us if there were a nuclear bomb dropped on Los Angeles! jebiga!
Anyway my mom said 'You are from kings and queens, you are from people who were not cowards, people who fought for freedom and people who faced great odds. You are to walk in a dignified manner, if you want to run, that's good exercise go ahead but run in a normal way that zigzagging isn't going to do you a damn bit of good if they drop an atom bomb on L.A.!' So we walked as usual, alone out of all our schoolmates during those wierd weeks.
I think adults who try to scare children in the way they tried to scare children then, have a special place in Hell. I blame a lot of the bad things that happened to the culture of the United States on that nonsense.
As if a bunch of barbudos from Cuba or a bunch of Russians were even going to make it there!
Maybe with present day technology but that was then this is now.
<< Home
